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Firefighters and the “9/11 Truth Movement”- Part Two

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Note: This is Part Two of a 5-part commentary that will run each morning this week.  Begin reading the series  with Part One HERE.

 US Conspiracies: We Can Do That

Conspiracists are aided by the fact that in the US, and at the highest levels, we engage in a wide variety of conspiracies to shape events. Our contemporary history is a litany of high level government officials engaging in unscrupulous actions to influence world events.

- John Kennedy successfully conspired to overthrow South Vietnamese leader Ngo Ding Diem, resulting in Diem’s murder.

- Kennedy also sanctioned a number of CIA plots to kill Fidel Castro ranging from the comic to the absurd.

- Richard Nixon successfully conspired to overthrow Chile’s democratically elected president Salvador Allende who was subsequently killed.

- Nixon also conspired to cover-up his role in the botched break-in at Democratic Party headquarters at the Watergate Complex in Washington, DC. He resigned because of it.

-Ronald Reagan’s closest advisers approved financing Central American insurgents in a complicated, illegal and ultimately unsuccessful “money for missiles conspiracy” with Iran.

 What these events and others have in common is:

 -they involve generally small groups of very smart people who have the discipline, training and resources to keep a secret.

-they are a highly selective group chosen for their intellect, experience and for understanding the importance of information security.

-they are vetted exhaustively during the recruitment process to ensure that their personal and professional backgrounds lend support to their ability to engage in confidential work.

You might have noticed that these US conspiracies are widely known and documented in media and academia with scores of citations and ever expanding converging sources of information and affirmation. They are undisputed in the main because information about them, including participants, means and methods trickled out and then became a torrent of reliably vetted facts because of our congenital inability to hide the interesting or infamous. In our country, you just can’t keep a secret, especially a really good (or heinous) one.

In each case, and in dozens of other lesser ones, either a direct participant or a supporting person “spilled the beans” or evidence of the activities was available to reporters or researchers merely by looking, asking or filing a FOIA. And, conspiracists often choose to explain or interpret their actions in light of national security or patriotism. (The renowned Dr. Johnson famously said, “Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.” Always beware when folks, even firefighters, wrap themselves in Old Glory.)

Scoundrels we may be, but secret keepers we are most assuredly not.

The conclusion can only be that America is not conspiracy free but rather that we are historically incapable of keeping them quiet. Perhaps it is the combination of a (mostly free) press and the fact that no matter how secret the secret, everybody tells somebody.

Whatever the reason, the notion that Americans can perpetrate large (or even small) scale conspiracies and successfully maintain their secrecy is absurd, inane and ridiculous. Even the “single cell” conspiracies enumerated above fell apart quickly and completely under the scrutiny of the press and the public. The larger the alleged conspiracy, including ones involving the destruction of huge buildings and the deaths of thousands of people, the less likely that there is any truth in it or that it could be kept secret for ten seconds, much less ten years.

 Part Three:  Anatomy of a Conspiracist: Smarter Than the Average Bear? is HERE.

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  • http://FriendFeed.com/PetrBuben PetrBuben

    911 is controlled demolition therefore inside false flag operation. Per irrefutable scientific evidence, per common sense.
     
    Sudden onset, symmetric free fall speed collapse midair pulverization.

    Bodies cremated?? Buildings evaporated? Or they just walked away?

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  • Dave

    really? Where’s your scientific evidence? I’m an engineer and the “official” investigation was correct. 

  • Valleytenderfoot

    Dave, I don’t think we will see a reply from PetrBuben. Unfortunately, it appears he/she is just another hit and run truther troll.  It’s a shame really that some people continue to pump out these kinds of misguided, unsubstantiated or downright false clams.

  • http://FriendFeed.com/PetrBuben PetrBuben

    well Mr Dave, the irrefutable scientific evidence is ALL OVER THE INTERNET. Have you been where? Searching for it? Reading it? Evaluating it?

    Well let me repeat the main lines of irrefutable scientific evidence, leaving aside the common sense notion that if you saw the video, it looks exactly like a controlled demolition, and that is mainly because it is a controlled demolition. Thinking anything else means assailing a common sense.

    the official investigation is demonstrably and intentionally false or nonexistent.

    ok. and add to each line – NOT possible other than controlled demolition of 3 steel skyscrapers.

    1. Sudden onset …
    2. Symmetric uniform collapse …
    3. Midair pulverization …
    4. Free fall speed …
    5. Fall into its footprint, through the path of greatest resistance …
    6. Victims cremated …
    7. Pyroclastic fine dust …
    8. Melted iron on the floor of WTC site, burning for months ….
    9. Nanothermite explosive found in dust of WTC …
    10. Iron spherules found in dust of WTC …

    Some resources to cite:
    http://www.911investigate.blogspot.com
    http://www.krunchd.com/911
    http://www.ae911truth.org

    http://www.WorldNewsRecord.blogspot.com
    http://www.twitter.com/911news

  • http://roguemedic.com/ Rogue Medic

    A lot of claims that are not supported by evidence, but are supported by links to conspiracy web sites.

    What these have in common is that they assume that they know the way things are supposed to happen. They then claim that their one way of things happening is the only way that things can happen.

    Those of us who live in the real world understand that things happen in many different ways. There are no absolutes. 

    If a person jumps out of an airplane and his parachute does not open, but he survives the fall, is that proof of a conspiracy? It is difficult to explain, but not impossible, unless you have predetermined beliefs about things only happening one way. 

    .

  • Valleytenderfoot

    I wish apologize to PetrBuben for the “hit and run…troll” comment as he did reply to this thread as well as the Part 1 thread.

  • http://www.rmesfire.org Jason Low

    I can’t figure out why people say “it looks like a controlled demolition, so it MUST BE a controlled demolition!!!11!!1!one!!11!!!eleven!!”. By that line of reasoning, every tornado MUST have a freight train in it.

  • Valleytenderfoot

    Sir, your assertions are unfortunately mostly incorrect:.
    1. It was NOT sudden; the collapse of WTC1 and 2 were preceeded by the impact of widebodied jet aircraft that caused significant structural damage and ignited massives fires on multiple floors resulting in the weakening and eventual failure of the steel supports causing a  progressive collapse.
    2. It was not symmetric, however it was progressive.
    3. Yes, there was pulverization of components of the structure, as would be expected in this type of collapse.
    4. What source are you using for this statement?  What measuring tools were used? What benchmarks were used to determine the speed?
    5. The buildings DID NOT fall into their own footprint, as is evidenced by the destruction of and significant damage to, numerous other buildings in the WTC complex and beyond (ex. WTC 3, 4, 5, 6 etc… see the link for a full list http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:New_York_City_Ground_Zero_map_of_damage.jpg
    6. What is your source? What is your definition of “cremated”? If Hindus can cremate bodies on open wood fires beside the Ganges, why would it be impossible or unusual for bodies to have been similarly burned in the fires of WTC1 and 2?
    7. This was a building collapse, not a volcano; “pyroclastic” is an incorrect term for the dust clouds, they would be more accurately described as turbidity flows I believe.
    8. What is your source? Was the material definitively identified as “melted iron”? There were certainly fires smouldering for many weeks in the pile, as would be expected.  I have personally witnessed a large pile of brush from a field clearing operation burn and smoulder  for 2 solid weeks through various types of weather.
    9. What is your source?  No report that I have seen indicated “explosives” were found.  The chemical components of thermite were likely present as naturally occurring components of the structure and contents of the WTC buildings. Besides, thermite would have been a ridiculously inefficent tool to use for a controlled demo due to the quantity required and slow speed of reaction.
    10. Iron spherules?  Which means what? They easily could have been present from the welding and cutting operations that took place as the WTC was being constructed.  They were certainly produced by the cutting operations during the rescue and recovery operations after the collapse.

    Petr, why do your feel inclined to believe in a conspiracy in this instance? Have you read the articles you are commenting on? Do you realize that the vast majority of rational people would consider many of your statements to be highly implausible? Have you heard of Occams razor?

  • http://FriendFeed.com/PetrBuben PetrBuben

    ok, you have not reacted to any points i mentioned which attest irrefutably to that 911 is controled demolition.

    The one point you make about tornado is logically wrong. But its the same with the notion that if you think 911 is not controlled demolition, that there is any other explanation, then this will violate the laws of physics of planet earth. That is wrong, you know.

    Tornado does not look like a freight rain, even though it might sound like one.

    911 attacks however look and sound like a controlled demolition.
    And I believe I said, or should have said, that .. ” ..therefore MAINLY they are controlled demolition”

    Of course there are things and phenomena that look one wy, but are actually something else …

    http://www.ae911truth.org

    ps
    ok i will post this via email, i think itl post on disqus, but i wonder if it will appear in a discussion under an article … if not il copy it there …

    http://www.911investigate.blogspot.com

    http://www.worldnewsrecord.blogspot.com

  • http://FriendFeed.com/PetrBuben PetrBuben

    ok, thanks .. not a problem

  • http://FriendFeed.com/PetrBuben PetrBuben

    ok, claims I make are supported, by now, by FACTS, SCIENTIFIC facts from many 911 research sites.
    il cite two, http://www.ae911truth.org, and http://www.stj911.org .

    Until a breakthrough discovery of nanothermite high tech military explosive in WTC dust was given in 2009, it was all on non absolute conclusive grounds.

    But the 2009 nanothermite study, youl find it on the net, was a landslide game-is-over-we-need-polygraph-new investigation event in The Great Patriotic 911Truth Peace and Justice Movement.

    What this all started from was a fact that attacks looked as controlled demoliton, see Dan Rather in Cbs.

    Soon bootleg honest patriot scientists realized that it cannot be anything else, but the movement was derided and assailed as “conspiratist” but unsuspecting official propaganda fed and worked media sources.

    The movement grew stronger, finally more scientists came on board, and Prof Jones played a crucial role in researching for truth.

    So, go and “live your real world” … good luck to you.

    The only thing I agree with you on is that “there are no absolutes”

    http://www.911UnitedWeInvestigate.blogspot.com

  • http://FriendFeed.com/PetrBuben PetrBuben

    Mr Valley, Il be replying to you in your text with >>>>> at left

    Sir, your assertions are unfortunately mostly incorrect:.
    >>>>> my assertions are scientific facts, made by science experts. They may not be politically or war propaganda correct, however thay are factually correct.

    1. It was NOT sudden; the collapse of WTC1 and 2 were preceeded by the impact of widebodied jet aircraft that caused significant structural damage and ignited massives fires on multiple floors resulting in the weakening and eventual failure of the steel supports causing a  progressive collapse.
    >>>> it WAS sudden. from 0 to total collapse in about 11 sec, close to free fall speed, about 11 floors per second disappeared.

    Building WTC 7 WAS NOT hit by any airplanes, yet it collapsed straight down, in its footprints, in 6.5 sec free fall uniform sudden onset.

    If there was any weakening of a structure, we would see ununiform topple over of buildings, and not through path of greatest resistence – strainght donw, but sideways, and irregularly.

    What we see is that thousands of bolts failed uniformely, in concert, as if “on command” … indeed.
    http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/attack/wtc2.htmlhttp://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/photos/collapses.html#south

    2. It was not symmetric, however it was progressive.
    >>>> it WAS symmetric, regular, ALL 3 buildings, on one day, collapsed straight down into their footprints ….. progressive? what d oyou mean? probalby the speed of free call, correct? or, close to free fall …

    3. Yes, there was pulverization of components of the structure, as would be expected in this type of collapse.
    >>>>> yes, pyroclastic cloud. impossible other than with explosives. type of collapse is master controlled demoliton.

    4. What source are you using for this statement?  What measuring tools were used? What benchmarks were used to determine the speed?
    >>>>> sources, again, all science experts patriots : http://www.ae911truth.org .. http://www.stj911.org …list at http://www.krunchd.com/911 , and http://www.911investigate.blogspot.com . another list at http://www.911UnitedWeInvestigate.blgospot.commeasuring tools? a stopwatch. benchmarks? seconds from the begining of fall.

    5. The buildings DID NOT fall into their own footprint, as is evidenced by the destruction of and significant damage to, numerous other buildings in the WTC complex and beyond (ex. WTC 3, 4, 5, 6 etc… see the link for a full list http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F...
    >>>> NO. buildings DID fall into their footprints. otherwise you’d see irregular topple over of intact buildings – that in case no explosives were used.
    The damage to side buildings is from debris ejected from controlled demoliotion charges being exploded.

    6. What is your source? What is your definition of “cremated”? If Hindus can cremate bodies on open wood fires beside the Ganges, why would it be impossible or unusual for bodies to have been similarly burned in the fires of WTC1 and 2?
    >>>> http://911investigate.blogspot.com/2011/05/renown-medical-examiner-expert-witness.html

    This medical expert says temperature of fires must be higher than office or kerosene fires. Temperatures must be sustained.

    As seen from western crematoriums chambers. I believe it is quite hard to entirely burn a human body.

    7. This was a building collapse, not a volcano; “pyroclastic” is an incorrect term for the dust clouds, they would be more accurately described as turbidity flows I believe.
    >>>> pyroclastic because of its fine structure and a flow movement

    8. What is your source? Was the material definitively identified as “melted iron”? There were certainly fires smouldering for many weeks in the pile, as would be expected.  I have personally witnessed a large pile of brush from a field clearing operation burn and smoulder  for 2 solid weeks through various types of weather.
    >>>> source: http://www.ae911truth.org
    yes, iron spherules, you can see it on pictures.
    you can see pictures of nanothermite high military explosive

    What was smouledring for 3 months was a molten metal, red hot after 3 months. What would be the explanation other than high tech military incendiary explosive were presnt and used?

    How would office fires or kerosene flare melt a metal??

    9. What is your source?  No report that I have seen indicated “explosives” were found.  The chemical components of thermite were likely present as naturally occurring components of the structure and contents of the WTC buildings. Besides, thermite would have been a ridiculously inefficent tool to use for a controlled demo due to the quantity required and slow speed of reaction.
    >>>> source: http://www.ae911truth.org for one, http://www.stj911.org, http://911research.wtc7.net
    specifially info on explosives found ….

    The material used is not naturally occuring, but new high tech secret nanothermite. Unexplodded it was found in the dust of WTC.
    Can you somehow explain, or obfuscate that?

    10. Iron spherules?  Which means what? They easily could have been present from the welding and cutting operations that took place as the WTC was being constructed.  They were certainly produced by the cutting operations during the rescue and recovery operations after the collapse.
    >>>> iron spherules means that temperature were reach od melting iron, and that is NOT possible with office or kerosene fires.

    them being from cutting operations? good point, im sure its addressed somewhere in the research.

    Petr, why do your feel inclined to believe in a conspiracy in this instance? Have you read the articles you are commenting on? Do you realize that the vast majority of rational people would consider many of your statements to be highly implausible? Have you heard of Occams razor?

    >>>> I understand what the scientific facts are, I believe in facts and science, therefore I do understand that 911 WTC attacks are controlled demolition, therefore inside false flag operation pretext for wars.

    I have read the article we are commenting on.

    Vast majority of rational people need to look at what rational, scientific facts and evidence are … They are, in this case, worked over by clever propaganda media.

    No, I have not heard of Occams razor …
    Il take a look. What is it, some movie? .., with a lot stars in it ??

    http://www.911investigate.blogspot.com

  • http://www.rmesfire.org Jason Low

    I don’t have to respond to your points. They are asinine. The assumptions you make and the false “proof” you provide require total dismissal of logic and sensibility.

    If you were READING this series of articles Firegeezer is posting instead of trolling for articles that match your search terms, on which to spew your brain-damaged, nonsensical “truths”, you’d understand why your “claims” are so far outside the realm of possibility that not even Evel Knievel would try to jump that chasm.

  • http://FriendFeed.com/PetrBuben PetrBuben

    well, so factual debate with you is impossible.

    no you dont have to respond to my points, even if his is a debate, but your response “my points are asinine” tells a lot about you an your way of thinking, and your goals. :]

    i am making no assumptions, i convey to you science experts opinions, and i explore facts.

    why do you say “i provide a flase proof” ? .. and then you dont want to debate …. are you perhaps lacking in arguments? .. is your psychological picture of what parts of US gov breaking ?

    im telling you this issue will be very hard on all of us, me included, on the whole nation. almost asinine proportions.

    i am debating and searching for the facts. you are free to counter them. but you cant.

  • Valleytenderfoot

    OK Petr, I thought (foolishly…optimistically…naively….yeah I know guys you were laughing at me the whole time) that perhaps we could have a discussion and maybe, just maybe you would recognize the futility of your position.  For every site you have listed, from your own little “investigate911blog” to all of the others, there are twice as many sites which explain (much more accurately and succinctly, using proper scientific method and input from actual experts in the related fields) how the events of 9/11 occurred and how every conspiracy claim is false.  Just for kicks, why not take a look at just one:   http://www.debunking911.com/index.html

    I thought I saw a glimmer of hope when you acknowledged another explanation for your “iron spherules”.  However that washed away when I read your blog.

    Anyway, take care and keep an open mind, …… “but don’t keep your mind so open that your brains fall out” (quoting Michael Shermer, Skeptic Magazine)

  • http://FriendFeed.com/PetrBuben PetrBuben

    Mr Valley,

    so they were laughing at you for having a discussion with opposing views? wow. how about that ……

    why cant we have a discussion if you wanted it? you do have a written permission from DHS and TSA, right ??

    you say i should “recognise the futility of my position” ?? see this is not about me, or about futility .. this is about 911 attacks, and about factuality, truth, about factual correctness ..

    So this your post, is it an invitiation to debate? so in that case, are you going to address points i make when its my turn?

    i know what government says 911 attacks are, and i know what debunking sites or nist say. i think its all deliberate propaganda lie and coverup of a big crime of 911 false flag inside operation. Per irrefutable scientific evidence, you see … http://www.ae911truth.org

    * iron spherules .. i have full confidence in 911 truth experts investigating them, and stating they are proof that explosives melted iron during controlled demolition collapse.

    Yourself too, Sir, have a good time :] …  i am open minded, yes, and im well aware that debris falling out of budding american fascism could crush one’s hopes for truth, for meaningful debates with firefighin guys! .. they laugh so much, right .. its almost asinine …

    my brains would not “fall out” if i kept my mind too opened .. theyd levitate around, buoyed by the strenghs of my knowledge, my wisdom and my understanding …

    see ya then around the net :]

    http://www.fireFightersFor911Truth.org

    and i want you to do one thing, if you would …. type up a post like this

    >>>>>>>>>
    ” I am a proud American, Im not in fear of anything or anybody on this world, much less the Truth, and I will state this freely.
    Therefore, 911 attacks are controlled demolition inside false flag operation.”
    <<<<<<<<<<

    would you now please print it out, spit on it, and stick it to the forehead of your captain commander ?? ….. and you know why? …

    maybe his brains will lit up ! .. with the fire, with the beauty, with relieve and release of The Truth come out itself !! ..

    should his brains fall out, then you'l take up his position. … shiits why wouldnt you

    here is my big 911Truth blog:
    http://911investigate.blogpost.com
    and another great one
    http://www.twitter.com/911news , http://www.twitter.com/911record
    and
    http://www.WorldNewsRecord.blogspot.com

  • http://FriendFeed.com/PetrBuben PetrBuben

    Id like, for now, to present you 2 links to very informative, important videos.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQLCYR9iROs 911 Mysteries

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_4X8OVL5vo Dr Bowman

    also at
    http://911investigate.blogspot.com/2011/08/911-mysteries-full-length-911-now.html

    quite powerful.

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