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Consequences for Non Compliance?

7 comments

Last week I piled onto Bill “Backstep Firefighter” Carey’s article “But They’ll Die as ‘Valiant Heros’ ” and repeated a suggestion that PSOB line-of-duty death benefits be reduced when there are clear examples of non compliance.

The examples I provided in last years article: Safety Blind Spots included this summary:

… change in the federal LODD procedures?

* No federal payout if a seat belt was not used
* Reduced payout if firefighter had a pre-existing cardiac condition or documented “sentinel” event
* Determining the percentage of responsibility that the member contributed to his/her death and reduce the benefits accordingly

I am NOT advocating these changes, but wonder if they would it result in a reduction from the following LODD subsets:

* 10-15 firefighers who die each year in vehicle collisions
* 40 some who die of cardiac-related conditions

Troy and Michael Legeros posted responses to last week’s blog item that continues this discussion.

TROY   -  KNOWLEDGE GAP?

Are we sure that those efforts have not made a difference? The numbers have not gone down as we would like, but they have not gone up either, even while fires are becoming more dangerous. Many departments have stepped-up and made some positive changes. Some never will – until they experience a LODD. Even then, it may be chalked up to ‘firefighting is dangerous’.

Is it lack of common sense, or the desire to do something coupled with a lack of knowledge? I think it is mostly the latter, and that is something we can try to fix. I do not believe it will be fixed by denying PSOB’s any more than denying workman’s comp claims would reduce firefighting injuries.

Our firefighting training focuses only on teaching the basics. Firefighter I and II are basic firefighting. Fire Officer I and II are basic management. Fire Officer II is basic chief officer management.

Where is the curriculum for fire behavior, reading smoke, flashover and backdraft? Where is the national curriculum on risk management? It is barely mentioned in IFSTA Fire Officer I, II or III or in the 16-hour NFA Incident Safety Officer class.

We are not training our firefighters to succeed by only teaching the basics. I guess that used to work because there were 20-year veterans in the department that could fill in these gaps with the new firefighters on-the-job. Most volunteer departments and many of the newer career departments do not have this person, so the knowledge gaps remain.

MIKE LEGEROS -  WHAT ABOUT RESOURCE LIMITATIONS?

A report on a North Carolina duty death, and the medical fitness component, gets me thinking about Mike’s posting here. How should rural and really rural departments treat medical fitness, safety initiatives, and such?

Obviously with equal emphasis and importance. But what about resource limitations. When the pool of people is smaller or grossly smaller, what’s the role of, say, medical fitness?

Do you developer lower-impact operational tactics? Do you try your hardest to safely “use what you have?” etc.

(link to Mike’s Raleigh/Wake Firefighting Blog)

Troy and Mike post excellent questions.

What are the remaining knowledge gaps?

.

Do we develop lower-impact operational tactics for the really rural departments?

What do you think?

Mike “FossilMedic” Ward

Also on FireGeezer…

Posted by on June 6, 2010 • Filed under: Command & Leadership, Firefighter Safety & Health, Firefighting Operations, In the Line of Duty, Training & Development, training-fire-rescue-topics • Tagged: , , , , ,
  • Dal90

    It's going to be as effective as Length of Service Awards Programs were for recruiting and retaining able bodied firefighters.

    Zilch.

    Our LODD statistics have gone up do to better / more consistent reporting for people seeking the death benefits. A lot of today's LODDs wouldn't have made the local newspaper in the past now get acknowledged for the money.

    Folks aren't motivated thinking their family is protected if they die, just as they're not motivated by a promise of a pension-like benefit decades down the road.

    The problem isn't folks not wearing their seatbelts or 70 year old fire-police dropping dead of a heart attack directing traffic. I could care less about either — you know to wear your seatbelts in your own car, and directing traffic is no more stressful then other daily activities like walking and chewing gum at the same time.

    The problem is we lose our focus on what fire-service specific activities where we, as a fire service, can make a difference. Focus on tactical problems, failure to recognize the unusual hazards we face, when we're exposed to unusual stuff (like cyanide in smoke) that isn't faced by John Doe carrying out their normal daily routine.

  • Dal90

    It's going to be as effective as Length of Service Awards Programs were for recruiting and retaining able bodied firefighters.

    Zilch.

    Our LODD statistics have gone up do to better / more consistent reporting for people seeking the death benefits. A lot of today's LODDs wouldn't have made the local newspaper in the past now get acknowledged for the money.

    Folks aren't motivated thinking their family is protected if they die, just as they're not motivated by a promise of a pension-like benefit decades down the road.

    The problem isn't folks not wearing their seatbelts or 70 year old fire-police dropping dead of a heart attack directing traffic. I could care less about either — you know to wear your seatbelts in your own car, and directing traffic is no more stressful then other daily activities like walking and chewing gum at the same time.

    The problem is we lose our focus on what fire-service specific activities where we, as a fire service, can make a difference. Focus on tactical problems, failure to recognize the unusual hazards we face, when we're exposed to unusual stuff (like cyanide in smoke) that isn't faced by John Doe carrying out their normal daily routine.

  • fireguy

    my only problem, except that is a real big one, is that the only people that will be affected by this will be the widows and families.

    if you think for one second that the guy not buckling his seat belt is gonna think twice about it knowing his kids may be poverty stricken because of his actions, then it's a great idea.

    but i feel that the stupid mistakes should not affect the family.

    it's bad enough the guy gets killed, its worse once it gets out that the deceased played some role in their own death, but it would be horrible to make the family suffer even worse.

    loss of the firefighter/dad/husband/mother/mom should be enough for the family. being financially penalized is probably too much.

  • http://twitter.com/firehat firehat

    First, no, I do not think this approach would work. When everybody thinks “it won't happen to me” the calculus required here will never darken the mind's door.

    Second, Troy has hit the nail on the head. The NFPA curricula are woefully inflexible, slow to adapt, and, as a result, antiquated. It's a symptom of the American fire service's lack of attention to education in general. Where is the Crew Resource Management? Where is the Recognition-Primed Decision Making theory? Troy noted the lack of risk management and fire dynamics/behavior and I would say the failure to adequately incorporate such education is one of the American fire service's greatest failures.

  • http://twitter.com/firehat firehat

    The change in reporting criteria over time are major issues for comparison.

    Cyanide in smoke is the biggest issue no one is talking about. Houston FD has saved at least two firefighters, and several civilians, by administering what are essentially NAAK doses to smoke inhalation victims. The firefighters were apneic at the time and would have been certain LODD's otherwise. The French fire service has known this for years. Why is the American fire service persisting in the myth that CO is the biggest threat in heavy smoke?

  • http://twitter.com/firehat firehat

    First, no, I do not think this approach would work. When everybody thinks “it won't happen to me” the calculus required here will never darken the mind's door.

    Second, Troy has hit the nail on the head. The NFPA curricula are woefully inflexible, slow to adapt, and, as a result, antiquated. It's a symptom of the American fire service's lack of attention to education in general. Where is the Crew Resource Management? Where is the Recognition-Primed Decision Making theory? Troy noted the lack of risk management and fire dynamics/behavior and I would say the failure to adequately incorporate such education is one of the American fire service's greatest failures.

  • http://twitter.com/firehat firehat

    The change in reporting criteria over time are major issues for comparison.

    Cyanide in smoke is the biggest issue no one is talking about. Houston FD has saved at least two firefighters, and several civilians, by administering what are essentially NAAK doses to smoke inhalation victims. The firefighters were apneic at the time and would have been certain LODD's otherwise. The French fire service has known this for years. Why is the American fire service persisting in the myth that CO is the biggest threat in heavy smoke?