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Firefighter “AIG” Problem

25 comments

For the second year, taxpayers are screaming about the end-of-year bonuses provided to Wall Street executives.

While the pile is money is much lower, career firefighters are encountering taxpayer anger. Let’s look at two issues:

TIME-TO-RETIRE

In the last half of the 20th century, some IAFF locals and state associations were successful in reducing the time required to qualify for a pension. Part of the argument was the punishing work conditions as a city firefighter in the 1940s and 1950s.

For example, if I was hired by Prince George’s County in the early 1970′s I could get a full pension after 20 years of service, instead of the 25 years needed to retire from Fairfax County. My ex, a civilian professional working in the fire department, always reminds me that she needs to work 32 years to get her county pension when she turns 55.

Sarasota County Fire Chief Kenneth Ellerbe

Chief Kenneth Ellerbe

Some departments have multiple retirement plans, based on when you started work. A person hired in PG today does not have the same generous retirement program enjoyed by the firefighters hired in the 1960s.

The issue with DCFD Chief Ellerbe on leave with out pay while working as the Sarasota County fire chief is an example of the nuances. When Ellerbe started with the District of Columbia fire department he needed to complete BOTH 25 years of service AND be 50 years old to start receiving a pension. Other DCFD members just need to achieve 25 years of time-in-service. Dave Statter, STATter911, provides the details HERE.

A December 26, 2009 Wall Street Journal article looked at the impact the recession has on local government. Conor Dougherty, writing in “As Slump Hits Home, Cities Downsize Their Ambitions” makes this observation:

More likely to be union members, government workers tend to be better paid and have greater job security than many of the taxpayers who pay their salaries. Benefits are often better, too. Virtually all full-time state and local workers have access to retirement benefits; in the private sector, about 76% of full-time employees had retirement benefits. Employment in local government peaked in August 2008 and has fallen by 117,000 since then, or less than 1%, compared with a 6.3% fall in private employment from its December 2007 peak. (full article HERE)

RETIREMENT BENEFITS

We posted an article about “Gilt-Edged Pensions” in response to an article published in the February 16, 2009 issue of Forbes magazine. Stephanie Fitch’s opening paragraph was designed to get your attention:

Your 401(k) isn’t doing too well, is it? But you’re footing the bill for some lucky stiffs who don’t have to worry about market crashes, medical costs or inflation.

The article featured police chief Glenn Goss. Goss retired as a Delray Beach police commander at 42 and took a job as the Highland Beach police chief. He gets a lifetime pension of $65,000 from Delray and, assuming he lives to the actuarial age of 78, represents a $2 million liability to Florida taxpayers. Fitch points out that there are “millions” of public safety employees with defined-benefit retirement programs.

Defined-benefit plans provide pension income to retired employees on the basis of a formula that accounts for a worker’s years of service at a firm and earnings. Distributions are typically made for the remainder of the employee’s life, making the plan similar to an annuity. Definition from Tax Policy Center of the Urban Center and Brookings Institution HERE

Forbes article HERE, Fossilmedic column HERE.

Sarasota’s reporting on Chief Ellerbe points out that the combination of DCFD pension and county salary approaches $250,000 a year. There is nothing illegal or improper about this situation, but generates the same anger as the federal government payout of Wall Street bonuses.

WHEN THE MONEY RUNS OUT

Forbes, The Wall Street Journal and The Economist have a pro-business, anti-labor editorial point-of-view.  Even with this bias, they make a couple of points that we cannot ignore.  A December 10, 2009 article in The Economist, makes the following observation in “Welcome to The Real World“:

Union_rates

… public-sector workers are spoiled rotten. Government employees earn 21% more than private ones and are 24% more likely to have access to health care. Only 21% of private workers enjoy a defined-benefit (DB) pension, which guarantees retirement income based on years of service and final salary. But 84% of state and local workers still receive DB plans. Article HERE

Defined benefits retirement program obligates the municipality for decades. To meet that obligation, local governments are reducing health benefits, laying off employees and reducing expenditures. It may not be enough.

The City of Vallejo filed for Chapter 9 bankruptcy on May 06, 2008 (HERE). One of the goals of filing for bankruptcy was to break existing public safety labor contracts and pension obligations.

I am sad that 50 years of efforts to improve the working conditions of career firefighters is crumbling in the face of the 2008 recession.

Even if the economy starts to grow today, we are two to three budget cycles away from significant increases in local government revenue. Some think that we will not see a rapid return to the growth and revenue during the 1990′s.

The experts interviewed in The Economist article say it time for a fundamental restructuring of work conditions, pay and benefits.

What do you think?

Mike “FossilMedic” Ward

Also on FireGeezer…

  • firegeezer

    I would like to point out that 56-hr week firefighters (as most of them are) put in the same amount of time after 25 yrs. that a 40-hr week employee does after 35 yrs. Unions, etc., don't do a good enough job of letting the taxpayers know that.

  • firegeezer

    I would like to point out that 56-hr week firefighters (as most of them are) put in the same amount of time after 25 yrs. that a 40-hr week employee does after 35 yrs. Unions, etc., don't do a good enough job of letting the taxpayers know that.

  • MNChief

    As a long time reader of the Wall Street Journal, Forbes and a former business owner, I've been watching this situation brew for a long time. There are a couple of major problems that have forced the situation with the greatest being the fact that many pension plans didn't make conservative actuarial projections. Minnesota is a pretty good example, back in the hey-day of the Internet bubble, the state pension board was making excellent returns, rather than stick this money in a “rainy day” account, they were obligated to return it to the pensioners and contributors; the pensioners were receiving 10% COLAs and the workers/city contribution rate was decreased. There were individuals who a couple years after retiring were making MORE money than when they were working. That doesn't make fiscal sense and it DEFINITELY doesn't make for good PR with the public. That requirement has since been changed, but the pension fund is still reeling from its effects.

    Another thing to point out in these articles is that many of the cities or pension funds that are in dire circumstances pay for retiree healthcare. That is something our local always pushed for, but our city never, ever negotiated. It was always a non-starter. Which, in hind sight, is a good thing for the taxpayers.

    I think one of the best things we can do as a fire service is educate the public, tell them how many hours we work, how many days away from the family (1 out of 3), the long nights and information from all of the studies that show we don't live as long as everyone else. Face it, we're not “normal” and we're definitely NOT average.

    In the end EVERY Fire/Police department will be scrutinized by the taxpayers, but also by the other city departments. We know what we do and the positive effect we have on our communities, but your average parks & rec worker feels the same way about what they do. How many calls does your average council member receive when a skating rink is closed vs. changes in minimum staffing?

    So what's going to happen? I think you'll see a push for a two-tier retirement system. The defined benefit will continue for existing personnel, but there will be a decreased DB for new hires with the balance of the contribution going into a 457b Plan.

  • topv7051

    What happens when we lose our pensions, go to 401Ks, and have an LODD? “Sorry, Ma'am, here's the $50K he had in the system after 10 years service. Good luck with Social Security.”

  • MNChief

    I'm not saying we don't deserve the pensions that we, or really, our predecessors fought for. What I am saying is that we need to be aware of the forces that are coming to bear on us and all public sector employees. Take a look at what you contribute and what the city contributes, in MN it's about 23% of wages. In the private sector you are counted on to make the contributions on your own, but really, how many people are willing to sock away that much cash?

    Here's just one of many posts on the subject. I would caution anyone who wants to get into a flame war in the comments that those arguments will only work to solidify opposition.

    http://reason.com/blog/2009/12/30/public-sector

  • http://www.firegeezer.com Mike "FossilMedic" Ward

    MNChief:

    Thanks for both posts and the link to the reason website. This paragraph from your link describes the situation:

    There is a looming showdown in American society between public-sector employees and the rest of us, in terms of job security and, especially, unsustainable gold-plated retirement and health benefits that are working hard to bankrupt whole states such as California, New York, and New Jersey.

    As with some parts of the private sector (domestically owned auto companies, for instance), basic compensation packages were hammered into place in a very different America, and conferred massive future benefits when politicians were either too stupid or too cowardly to confront basic questions of fiscal responsibility.

    Do you want to spend your life (and have your kids spend their lives) to pay ever-increasing taxes for teacher, cop, and bureaurat retirements at early ages? Especially while you're expected to fully fund your own? This is a social contract that needs to be redrawn ASAP.

  • Ckemtp

    I want to comment on this, but I don't know exactly how to word what it is I want to say. If you look at the discussion I have going right now on my blog, it's exactly the opposite. Unfortunately, I too see the fact that local governmental salaries may be unsustainable. Long ago the private sector dropped the paternalistic style of employee-employer relations and dropped the pretense that employers, and not employees, were responsible for the long-term welfare of the employee.

    Are some firefighters overpaid? Yep. Are some local government officials overpaid?? Uh huh. Are the taxpayers eventually going to revolt? Yes, indeed they probably are. I have looked at some local fire departments and have determined that if I were one of their taxpaying citizens, I would not support their pay scales and benefits. I'm an American citizen first, and I believe in smaller government that is responsible to the people. The voters always have the final say.

    So, my prediction for the nearer-than-you-think future is this: 'Locals', times are a changin. You'd better get out in front of it.

  • http://www.firegeezer.com Mike "FossilMedic" Ward

    Hi Chris, thanks for the post.

    I think that single-role EMS gets the shaft in terms of compensation. The great discussion on your blog points out the limiting factor of medicare reimbursement on employee salaries.

    http://lifeunderthelights.com/2009/12/ems-pay-s

  • DaGonz

    When it is a bull market and times are booming, and the private sector is making fistfuls of money, public sector employees are looked down upon as working for “chump change”.

    When the market takes a downturn.. suddenly we are “overpaid” and should “share the pain”.

    Funny.. in the boom times, I don't see the private sector offering to share and give modest increases to the public sector… we get told “you have a contract… stick to it.”

  • oznob

    I agree, while we do not fare as well as our friends in private industry and they laugh at us with our pensions the recent recession has changed the face of the way many people do business. I am afraid that pensions, like salaries are going to take a hit regardless of how the economy fares over the next couple of years. Of course the name of the article caught my attention, since I briefly had an account with AIG…..

  • http://www.firegeezer.com Mike "FossilMedic" Ward

    Yeah, I remember some of the volunteers telling me that they could not afford to become paid firefighters.

    I like your idea of sharing the wealth in good times.

    Happy New Year

  • http://www.firegeezer.com Mike "FossilMedic" Ward

    Thanks for posting.

  • http://www.firegeezer.com Mike "FossilMedic" Ward

    Yeah, I remember some of the volunteers telling me that they could not afford to become paid firefighters.

    I like your idea of sharing the wealth in good times.

    Happy New Year

  • http://www.firegeezer.com Mike "FossilMedic" Ward

    Thanks for posting.

  • Old Firefighter

    Mr. Ward;
    I don't know WHERE you are getting your “statistics, but I spent 30
    years as a Federal Firefighter and MY salary was almost 30% BELOW
    the surrounding jursidictions! And my retirement is NOT more than the
    “private sector”! Now compared with YOUR retirement and excluding
    your MFRI second career I'm REALLY behind! Oly $1700 per month
    GROSSand THAT is BEFORE I pay my “government guaranteed” health
    care premium! Not to mention other neccessities. I retired in 2001.

    Also, MY work week (24on/24off) was MUCH LONGER than the PG County
    work week (24on/72off). And the Feds DON'T get O/T or Holiday Pay, etc.
    Neither do a LOT of other “government” FDs such as other cities, counties,
    etc.

    Now if you are using the PG County MD FD as the “norm” (the highest
    paid and best benefits package in the NATION) then, yes, “government”
    workers ARE paid more than the “private sector”. But you should be more
    specific in your “journalism” as this is being read by people all over the
    countyr and some even not in the profession.

  • FETC

    FossilMedic,

    As with some other posts like DaGonz in the other blog, many have only half the truth but capture statistics that they want to hear and sell to the public.

    In the good times, many municipalities lobbied to reduce their “employer” contributions (because the bull market was great) Now I contribute nearly 10% of my paycheck every week into the firefighter retirement system, (note not many private sector 401's are banking that each week from their pay) When the times were good… lobbist won the right to pay (0) zip, nothing from the employer side contribution because of the market's #s or returns were insane, yes our firefighter contribution (money) was still invested each and every week, and for those who don't know it is invested into the stock market. When the money was rolling in, we were chump change to the municipalities. Now that the market has changed for the worse we are a huge liability to them and all the taxpayers.

    Watch this video I posted found on youtube about the New Jersey firefighter retirement system, and maybe you and others will see what the firefighters feel was not done in their best interest… but they had no say on how the employer handled their personal committment, negotiated committment, or law to the employees contractual retirement.

    http://www.firefighternation.com/video/nj-retir

    TCSS
    FETC

  • FETC

    FossilMedic,

    As with some other posts like DaGonz in the other blog, many have only half the truth but capture statistics that they want to hear and sell to the public.

    In the good times, many municipalities lobbied to reduce their “employer” contributions (because the bull market was great) Now I contribute nearly 10% of my paycheck every week into the firefighter retirement system, (note not many private sector 401's are banking that each week from their pay) When the times were good… lobbist won the right to pay (0) zip, nothing from the employer side contribution because of the market's #s or returns were insane, yes our firefighter contribution (money) was still invested each and every week, and for those who don't know it is invested into the stock market. When the money was rolling in, we were chump change to the municipalities. Now that the market has changed for the worse we are a huge liability to them and all the taxpayers.

    Watch this video I posted found on youtube about the New Jersey firefighter retirement system, and maybe you and others will see what the firefighters feel was not done in their best interest… but they had no say on how the employer handled their personal committment, negotiated committment, or law to the employees contractual retirement.

    http://www.firefighternation.com/video/nj-retir

    TCSS
    FETC

  • http://www.firegeezer.com Mike "FossilMedic" Ward

    OldFirefighter:

    Federal firefighters have enjoyed less success than municipal firefighters when it comes to pay and retirement. I *think* some of them are still working a 77 hour work week.

    The statistics are coming from the articles I linked to.

    As some of my Virginia buddies reminded me, those working under a state-run retirement program have equally ungenerous benefits.

    The old PG retirement program was short and very generous, when the firefighters were making $17,000 a month. One of the issues was that the pay rate went up and the calculated percentages of a defined benefit program were not adjusted.

    So when the firefighter that started at $17K in 1969 is making $77K as a Captain in 1989, he gets a pretty nice monthly check.

    Thanks for posting.

    Mike

  • http://www.firegeezer.com Mike "FossilMedic" Ward

    Thanks for the post and the link.

    Mike

  • http://www.firegeezer.com Mike "FossilMedic" Ward

    OldFirefighter:

    Federal firefighters have enjoyed less success than municipal firefighters when it comes to pay and retirement. I *think* some of them are still working a 77 hour work week.

    The statistics are coming from the articles I linked to.

    As some of my Virginia buddies reminded me, those working under a state-run retirement program have equally ungenerous benefits.

    The old PG retirement program was short and very generous, when the firefighters were making $17,000 a month. One of the issues was that the pay rate went up and the calculated percentages of a defined benefit program were not adjusted.

    So when the firefighter that started at $17K in 1969 is making $77K as a Captain in 1989, he gets a pretty nice monthly check.

    Thanks for posting.

    Mike

  • http://www.firegeezer.com Mike "FossilMedic" Ward

    Thanks for the post and the link.

    Mike

  • http://www.firegeezer.com Mike "FossilMedic" Ward

    OldFirefighter:

    Federal firefighters have enjoyed less success than municipal firefighters when it comes to pay and retirement. I *think* some of them are still working a 77 hour work week.

    The statistics are coming from the articles I linked to.

    As some of my Virginia buddies reminded me, those working under a state-run retirement program have equally ungenerous benefits.

    The old PG retirement program was short and very generous, when the firefighters were making $17,000 a month. One of the issues was that the pay rate went up and the calculated percentages of a defined benefit program were not adjusted.

    So when the firefighter that started at $17K in 1969 is making $77K as a Captain in 1989, he gets a pretty nice monthly check.

    Thanks for posting.

    Mike

  • http://www.firegeezer.com Mike "FossilMedic" Ward

    Thanks for the post and the link.

    Mike

  • http://www.firegeezer.com Mike "FossilMedic" Ward

    OldFirefighter:

    Federal firefighters have enjoyed less success than municipal firefighters when it comes to pay and retirement. I *think* some of them are still working a 77 hour work week.

    The statistics are coming from the articles I linked to.

    As some of my Virginia buddies reminded me, those working under a state-run retirement program have equally ungenerous benefits.

    The old PG retirement program was short and very generous, when the firefighters were making $17,000 a month. One of the issues was that the pay rate went up and the calculated percentages of a defined benefit program were not adjusted.

    So when the firefighter that started at $17K in 1969 is making $77K as a Captain in 1989, he gets a pretty nice monthly check.

    Thanks for posting.

    Mike

  • http://www.firegeezer.com Mike "FossilMedic" Ward

    Thanks for the post and the link.

    Mike