Another High-Rise Hose Pack

Published on June 9th, 2009

Written by: firegeezer

OUR FRIENDS UP AT THE FORT WASHINGTON FIRE CO. No.1 in Montgomery County, Pennsylvania, were doing some “training research” on YouTube recently and came across this novel hose load style for high rise packs. They tried it out and liked it, so they’re running some evolutions with it to see if it fits into their needs. Last night they were scheduled to try it at a live burn at the County Fire Academy, so maybe we’ll get some more feedback on it.

The hose load is called the Cleveland Load and the very well produced video explains how to pack it and deploy it. Unfortunately whoever posted it doesn’t give proper credit to whatever FD made the video. If anybody can help us with the identification of it, please let us know. Now let’s take a look:

Obviously one of the key lessons here is to NEVER start walking away with the nozzle until the line is charged. That’s just the opposite from so many other hose loads that it would take lots of practice to keep from fouling up at the fireground.

Are any of our readers already using this hose load? Tell us about it.

Fort Washington Fire Co. WEBSITE.

Hat tip to Zach

Categories: Training

http://yourhappymedic.blogspot.com/ Happy Medic

Looks like something to actually try in a stairwell or smokeless stairwell lobby. Then, of course, you have the issue of being slowed down by advancing a charged line as opposed to advancing dry, finding the fire and charging.

I love that folks are trying different things!

I’m trying this tomorrow in a stairwell to see how it works.
http://yourhappymedic.blogspot.com Happy Medic

Looks like something to actually try in a stairwell or smokeless stairwell lobby. Then, of course, you have the issue of being slowed down by advancing a charged line as opposed to advancing dry, finding the fire and charging.

I love that folks are trying different things!

I’m trying this tomorrow in a stairwell to see how it works.
http://www.iaff3499.com/ Nate

Although there are several different entities who lay claim to this load (kind of like Al Gore inventing the internet), further searching shows that this type of load originated in the Calif. Forestry division. It was something they could easily and quickly deploy/charge without having to flake out a bunch of hose (Hmm…kind of like a stairwell). I’ve heard it called the Cleveland, Metro, Forestry Coil, and Hoffy load. I know of one SoCal Dept. that uses it for highrise, and another here in Central Florida that has adapted it to their 150′/200′ crosslays and love it. I’ve only recently dabbled with it, and it looks promising.
http://www.iaff3499.com Nate

Although there are several different entities who lay claim to this load (kind of like Al Gore inventing the internet), further searching shows that this type of load originated in the Calif. Forestry division. It was something they could easily and quickly deploy/charge without having to flake out a bunch of hose (Hmm…kind of like a stairwell). I’ve heard it called the Cleveland, Metro, Forestry Coil, and Hoffy load. I know of one SoCal Dept. that uses it for highrise, and another here in Central Florida that has adapted it to their 150′/200′ crosslays and love it. I’ve only recently dabbled with it, and it looks promising.
Nick

I don’t care what they call it, I think that is a great idea.
Nick

I don’t care what they call it, I think that is a great idea.
Joe

My agency uses this hose load on our bulk hose loads. The bundle is the 50′ closest to the nozzle. We grab the bundle and take it to the doorway of the fire area which always gives us 50′ of working line at the doorway.

The only problem I have with the video is the fact that they are using it for high rise operations. Numerous studies and actual fires have shown that 1-3/4″ hose is grossly inadequate for a high rise fire.
Joe

My agency uses this hose load on our bulk hose loads. The bundle is the 50′ closest to the nozzle. We grab the bundle and take it to the doorway of the fire area which always gives us 50′ of working line at the doorway.

The only problem I have with the video is the fact that they are using it for high rise operations. Numerous studies and actual fires have shown that 1-3/4″ hose is grossly inadequate for a high rise fire.
Texas Gordo

Thanks for finding this and sharing it.
Texas Gordo

Thanks for finding this and sharing it.
Taylor

My department first started using this about five years ago for high-rise packs. As with anything, it came with fans, but also people who didn’t support it’s use. Intended to be used specifically in high-rise occupancies, we found that sometimes those occupancies with narrow stairwells caused this load to become kinked and/or wedged on the landing prior to use.

After exhaustive testing of many types of loads, we have now made it a department-wide standard to use the same load as FDNY for all of our high-rise packs. This isn’t just because FDNY does it – rather, it was tested in our environment and found to exceed expectations.

I have to agree with Joe above. Don’t rely on the false sense of security that a 1.75″ line gives you in a high-rise…get the high-caliber lines out!
Taylor

My department first started using this about five years ago for high-rise packs. As with anything, it came with fans, but also people who didn’t support it’s use. Intended to be used specifically in high-rise occupancies, we found that sometimes those occupancies with narrow stairwells caused this load to become kinked and/or wedged on the landing prior to use.

After exhaustive testing of many types of loads, we have now made it a department-wide standard to use the same load as FDNY for all of our high-rise packs. This isn’t just because FDNY does it – rather, it was tested in our environment and found to exceed expectations.

I have to agree with Joe above. Don’t rely on the false sense of security that a 1.75″ line gives you in a high-rise…get the high-caliber lines out!
http://www.iaff3499.com/ Nate Q.

I’ve also seen where the crew will stand the coils up against the wall after charging the line, so the stairwell can be kept somewhat clear for other crews.
http://www.iaff3499.com Nate Q.

I’ve also seen where the crew will stand the coils up against the wall after charging the line, so the stairwell can be kept somewhat clear for other crews.
Dal90

Go get a copy of John Norman’s Fire Officer’s Handbook of Tactics. Much of it is available on Google Books.

Pre-1993 NFPA 14 Standpipe systems had a design pressure of 65psi at the standpipe outlet and called for standpipe outlets space frequently enough that 100′ hose could put a 30′ stream on any fire.

In the wake of the pressure reducing valve problems with 1 Meridian Square’s triple LODD in Philadelphia, the new NFPA 14 called for a minimum 100psi outlet pressure, but increased the the distance too 25′ stream, 150′ of hose PLUS the height of the staircase to the outlet below the fire. That’s four lengths of hose.

There are some design options and such, so local mileage may vary slightly…but those are the basic figures you should use for conservative planning purposes.

If you have a 100% perfectly maintained pre-1993 standpipe system functioning just as designed, you may only have 65psi at the outlet.

Even if you have a fog nozzle designed for 55psi, that’ll give you 80gpm using crappy low-bid 1-3/4″ hose and 100gpm using the best hose on the market today.

If you have a new style system, great…you have 100psi, but 200′ to go. That’ll get 125gpm to 150gpm.

It’s one thing if you pull a 1-3/4″ preconnect for a single family dwelling and find yourself overwhelmed. The truck is right there, in one minute you can have another line of the same or larger size deployed.

What do you do four stories up and 400′ horizontal from your engine and you’re hose isn’t big enough? Or six or ten stories up in a modest high rise?

In those scenarios I laid out with 1-3/4″ on a good day giving you 80 to 150gpm, a 2-1/2″ will get you 275gpm to 350gpm.

Why would you even bother with the gated 2-1/2-to-1-1/2 wye? It’s GOING to take more manpower to stretch and operate 2 1-3/4″ in parallel lines to deliver less water then a single 2-1/2″ line. This is a fundamental tactical problem folks — focus your efforts on the getting the first, right sized line in operation before you try to stretch a second line in parallel.

After your done with engineering and organization problems, consider that you don’t control the standpipes and don’t know what garbage could get chucked up to clog a fog nozzle. We don’t have many standpipes in my district. The largest system we have we assume it to have been sabotaged and unavailable if there is a fire beyond extinguisher size (it’s in a correctional center)
, so we will lead in with 2-1/2″ hose that we know we’ve maintained and tested.

Yes, I can’t throw too many stones. Our “stairpacks” are not good for standpipes. Fortunately 90% of their use is extending lines around the back of one and two story occupancies. This load would work excellent for that as well.

But it’s not appropriate for standpipes. The math doesn’t work, it requires you make optimistic “best case scenario” assumptions as to what you will find for a situation, and it violates basic firefighting principles of how to organize and use your manpower on critical incidents.

=========
Final note, given this is a WILDLAND hose load that found it’s way into the structural world, my money is on the “Cleveland” being Cleveland National Forest in southern California.
Dal90

Go get a copy of John Norman’s Fire Officer’s Handbook of Tactics. Much of it is available on Google Books.

Pre-1993 NFPA 14 Standpipe systems had a design pressure of 65psi at the standpipe outlet and called for standpipe outlets space frequently enough that 100′ hose could put a 30′ stream on any fire.

In the wake of the pressure reducing valve problems with 1 Meridian Square’s triple LODD in Philadelphia, the new NFPA 14 called for a minimum 100psi outlet pressure, but increased the the distance too 25′ stream, 150′ of hose PLUS the height of the staircase to the outlet below the fire. That’s four lengths of hose.

There are some design options and such, so local mileage may vary slightly…but those are the basic figures you should use for conservative planning purposes.

If you have a 100% perfectly maintained pre-1993 standpipe system functioning just as designed, you may only have 65psi at the outlet.

Even if you have a fog nozzle designed for 55psi, that’ll give you 80gpm using crappy low-bid 1-3/4″ hose and 100gpm using the best hose on the market today.

If you have a new style system, great…you have 100psi, but 200′ to go. That’ll get 125gpm to 150gpm.

It’s one thing if you pull a 1-3/4″ preconnect for a single family dwelling and find yourself overwhelmed. The truck is right there, in one minute you can have another line of the same or larger size deployed.

What do you do four stories up and 400′ horizontal from your engine and you’re hose isn’t big enough? Or six or ten stories up in a modest high rise?

In those scenarios I laid out with 1-3/4″ on a good day giving you 80 to 150gpm, a 2-1/2″ will get you 275gpm to 350gpm.

Why would you even bother with the gated 2-1/2-to-1-1/2 wye? It’s GOING to take more manpower to stretch and operate 2 1-3/4″ in parallel lines to deliver less water then a single 2-1/2″ line. This is a fundamental tactical problem folks — focus your efforts on the getting the first, right sized line in operation before you try to stretch a second line in parallel.

After your done with engineering and organization problems, consider that you don’t control the standpipes and don’t know what garbage could get chucked up to clog a fog nozzle. We don’t have many standpipes in my district. The largest system we have we assume it to have been sabotaged and unavailable if there is a fire beyond extinguisher size (it’s in a correctional center)
, so we will lead in with 2-1/2″ hose that we know we’ve maintained and tested.

Yes, I can’t throw too many stones. Our “stairpacks” are not good for standpipes. Fortunately 90% of their use is extending lines around the back of one and two story occupancies. This load would work excellent for that as well.

But it’s not appropriate for standpipes. The math doesn’t work, it requires you make optimistic “best case scenario” assumptions as to what you will find for a situation, and it violates basic firefighting principles of how to organize and use your manpower on critical incidents.

=========
Final note, given this is a WILDLAND hose load that found it’s way into the structural world, my money is on the “Cleveland” being Cleveland National Forest in southern California.
Dal90

(Ok, I’ve gotten myself worked up into grumpy mood…)

But what the hell, why bother discussing math, talk about changing engineering standards, or how you organize companies to accomplish the highest priorities first.

We put “Everyone Goes Home” on our firetrucks and make sure everyone buckles up and bitch about the fat firefighters. That’ll solve all the problems. Now we can spend time training on fundamentally unsound practices and no one will get hurt!
Dal90

(Ok, I’ve gotten myself worked up into grumpy mood…)

But what the hell, why bother discussing math, talk about changing engineering standards, or how you organize companies to accomplish the highest priorities first.

We put “Everyone Goes Home” on our firetrucks and make sure everyone buckles up and bitch about the fat firefighters. That’ll solve all the problems. Now we can spend time training on fundamentally unsound practices and no one will get hurt!
http://wildfiretoday.com/ Bill

The concept of the circular pack originated on the Cleveland National Forest in southern California, hence the name, “Cleveland”. The brush engines, when I worked there in the 1980s, constructed a pack consisting of 100′ of 1.5″ and 100′ of 1″ hose, all connected, and with a 1.5″ gated wye, reducer, and a 1″ nozzle. Many of these packs would be used to put together a long progressive hose lay, with a 100′ lateral and nozzle every 100′.

Their packs used the 1.5″ to build shoulder straps, so you could carry it on your back, keeping your hands free, and even operating a nozzle.
http://wildfiretoday.com Bill

The concept of the circular pack originated on the Cleveland National Forest in southern California, hence the name, “Cleveland”. The brush engines, when I worked there in the 1980s, constructed a pack consisting of 100′ of 1.5″ and 100′ of 1″ hose, all connected, and with a 1.5″ gated wye, reducer, and a 1″ nozzle. Many of these packs would be used to put together a long progressive hose lay, with a 100′ lateral and nozzle every 100′.

Their packs used the 1.5″ to build shoulder straps, so you could carry it on your back, keeping your hands free, and even operating a nozzle.
http://www.fortwashingtonfc.org/ Zach

After watching several videos on this hose pack we tried it out in front of our station. It worked just as we had seen in the videos and was very easy to repack. I took a video of it and posted it on Youtube. If you would like to see it just search for Cleveland Load Training. We just hooked directly into a hydrant and it didn’t have the best pressure, but it still worked.

We have been taking a high rise class at our fire academy and wanted to try it out during a live burn. We did try it out and it worked great. Even the instructors were impressed with how well it flaked out.

I read some of the above posts and I just wanted to comment on them real quick. We do have 1 3/4″ high rise packs as well as 2 1/2″. Even though we call our packs “high rise” they most likely would be used on long hose stretches for large properties that sit a long distance from the road. We may also use them in garden style apartments. We don’t have any office buildings higher than (4) stories in our local.

This coming week at drill we are going to practice a few different hose loads and should be able to practice a bit more with the Cleveland Load.

We haven’t made a decision on using the Cleveland Load, but we now have another option that may be used in the future. Keeping an open mind to new tactics and equipment will always help any department adapt to modern times.

Stay Safe,

Zach

Fort Washington Fire Company
http://www.fortwashingtonfc.org Zach

After watching several videos on this hose pack we tried it out in front of our station. It worked just as we had seen in the videos and was very easy to repack. I took a video of it and posted it on Youtube. If you would like to see it just search for Cleveland Load Training. We just hooked directly into a hydrant and it didn’t have the best pressure, but it still worked.

We have been taking a high rise class at our fire academy and wanted to try it out during a live burn. We did try it out and it worked great. Even the instructors were impressed with how well it flaked out.

I read some of the above posts and I just wanted to comment on them real quick. We do have 1 3/4″ high rise packs as well as 2 1/2″. Even though we call our packs “high rise” they most likely would be used on long hose stretches for large properties that sit a long distance from the road. We may also use them in garden style apartments. We don’t have any office buildings higher than (4) stories in our local.

This coming week at drill we are going to practice a few different hose loads and should be able to practice a bit more with the Cleveland Load.

We haven’t made a decision on using the Cleveland Load, but we now have another option that may be used in the future. Keeping an open mind to new tactics and equipment will always help any department adapt to modern times.

Stay Safe,

Zach

Fort Washington Fire Company

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Another High-Rise Hose Pack