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Morning Lineup – March 18

10 comments

I have a prediction.  It’s a combination short-term and long-range prediction.  Mind you, I have a pretty good record when it comes to long-range predictions on all sorts of topics.  But I usually slip a bit on the short-term ones.  But then, so does the weather forecaster and they get paid a lot more than the average firefighter/EMT.

My prognostication has to do with fire engines.  Not ladder trucks or giant foam applicators, but the basic pumper.  There will soon be a definite trend back to the smaller, more maneuverable fire pump that will have fewer added-on features and less compartment space.

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ODHFS

This change in design will be brought about by both financial pressures and the advance of the microchip.  The financial angle is looming up immediately with the sudden decline in real estate tax revenues which are the basic income for municipalities that buy fire engines.  Compounding the dollar squeeze is the high cost (and getting higher) of the monster engines that are now as large as a transcontinental passenger bus.

Already many purchasing agencies have postponed their planned replacement orders because they are short of funds now and have no problem with getting one or two more years out of existing equipment.  After all, we’ve always been very adept and keeping fire engines in service for 20 years at times.  So keeping an 8-yr.-old pumper going for another couple of years won’t be too big a task.

As far as the smaller communities and volunteer departments go, many of them have upgraded over the past ten years to the super-size engines of today, but now that replacement time is coming around, they flat-out don’t have the money to even think about ordering a new one.  Thus the demand now climbing for good, used fire engines.

But any day now, there will be a mighty “bolt from the blue” that will jolt firetruck buyers everywhere who will ask themselves, “Do we really have to buy such a big, expensive fire engine?”   After all, its main purpose is to carry hose lines and pump water.  So why not go back to basics and just order the necessities?  If a firetruck builder can offer a Class A pumper at half the price they were selling for last year, then they have an opportunity there to make some sales.  Imagine selling your humongous fire engine to another FD and getting enough cash to pay for a new one?

This trend will lead to the return of the regional small shops that build good fire engines on commercial chassis.  A return to the days of Darley, Boardman, Oren, etc.  Ah, now we’re rolling.  I’ve got more reasons for this next trend, and I haven’t even covered the role of the microchip yet.  We’ll resume this discussion tomorrow.

Right now we’ve got to check out the equipment we’ve already got.  And I’ll go make some more coffee.

Posted by on March 18, 2009 • Filed under: morning lineup
  • http://www.firehousezen.com/ Mick Mayers

    I agree that there will likely be shifts in apparatus purchase philosophies; the problem will be whether they get the picture that having more units with less on them as first in attack units and then maybe something that has a lot of tools and ladders and things could bring these items as the call progresses- just not have as many of them around…oh, wait, isn’t that the concept of attack engines and truck companies?

    When chiefs begin to realize sharing regional resources are a good idea and not everyone has to have a big bad super-rescue-engine, and we earnestly develop mutual aid box systems, maybe the fire service can concentrate our ever-dwindling funds on other essentials.

  • http://www.firehousezen.com Mick Mayers

    I agree that there will likely be shifts in apparatus purchase philosophies; the problem will be whether they get the picture that having more units with less on them as first in attack units and then maybe something that has a lot of tools and ladders and things could bring these items as the call progresses- just not have as many of them around…oh, wait, isn’t that the concept of attack engines and truck companies?

    When chiefs begin to realize sharing regional resources are a good idea and not everyone has to have a big bad super-rescue-engine, and we earnestly develop mutual aid box systems, maybe the fire service can concentrate our ever-dwindling funds on other essentials.

  • DaGonz

    I do not beleive we will see the re-emeregence of the small apparatus manufacturer. It is, for all intents and purposes a niche market. I beleive that it was Mike Wilbur(www.emergencyvehicleresponse.com) who stated that in the average year, 1200 to 1300 new fire trucks are built.

    I think that the apparatus manufacturers will build rigs with different levels of options and stick to the packages offered to keep their costs down.

  • DaGonz

    I do not beleive we will see the re-emeregence of the small apparatus manufacturer. It is, for all intents and purposes a niche market. I beleive that it was Mike Wilbur(www.emergencyvehicleresponse.com) who stated that in the average year, 1200 to 1300 new fire trucks are built.

    I think that the apparatus manufacturers will build rigs with different levels of options and stick to the packages offered to keep their costs down.

  • Capt. Tom

    Gee I dunno Geez,
    I think this would be a good thing, but I believe the next iteration of NFPA standards revisions is going to have a bigger impact on the industry than one might think. The talk is that any apparatus over 15 years in age must either be retired or fully refitted up to currnet standards. Now you don’t have to be a genius to figure out what this is going to do to the thousands of small departments that keep their 25+ year old vehicles in top running condition. They will have to dump all those trucks, run out of standard, or go out of business. I don’t think many departments will be looking to buy a 10 year old truck in that market.
    On the other hand I like the ‘lean and mean’ idea of getting back to what these trucks really need to do. A pumper is a pumper, and a tanker is a tanker. Unfortunately, all the new NFPA requirements for markings and backup cameras and all the other doo-dads like helmet brackets, just run the cost up.
    I guess we’ll just have to watch and see.
    Tom

  • Capt. Tom

    Gee I dunno Geez,
    I think this would be a good thing, but I believe the next iteration of NFPA standards revisions is going to have a bigger impact on the industry than one might think. The talk is that any apparatus over 15 years in age must either be retired or fully refitted up to currnet standards. Now you don’t have to be a genius to figure out what this is going to do to the thousands of small departments that keep their 25+ year old vehicles in top running condition. They will have to dump all those trucks, run out of standard, or go out of business. I don’t think many departments will be looking to buy a 10 year old truck in that market.
    On the other hand I like the ‘lean and mean’ idea of getting back to what these trucks really need to do. A pumper is a pumper, and a tanker is a tanker. Unfortunately, all the new NFPA requirements for markings and backup cameras and all the other doo-dads like helmet brackets, just run the cost up.
    I guess we’ll just have to watch and see.
    Tom

  • Sam

    I had this very argument with the “powers that be” at my firehouse 10 years ago. They were ordering $400,000 custom trucks with no clear plan to be able to pay for them….and we run only about 100 calls a year. Most of those are to assist OTHER companies. So now we have $1 million in truck payments AND we had to do an emergency replacement of the fire station….for $475,000. How are we going to pay for it in this economy? No idea but it aint my problem anymore. They voted to spend all that money on custom trucks that benefits mostly other areas…when commercial chasis trucks were available for 1/4 to 1/2 of the cost. I hope that this depression is the end of the fire department “parade peice” trucks.

  • Sam

    I had this very argument with the “powers that be” at my firehouse 10 years ago. They were ordering $400,000 custom trucks with no clear plan to be able to pay for them….and we run only about 100 calls a year. Most of those are to assist OTHER companies. So now we have $1 million in truck payments AND we had to do an emergency replacement of the fire station….for $475,000. How are we going to pay for it in this economy? No idea but it aint my problem anymore. They voted to spend all that money on custom trucks that benefits mostly other areas…when commercial chasis trucks were available for 1/4 to 1/2 of the cost. I hope that this depression is the end of the fire department “parade peice” trucks.

  • FIREhat

    I welcome any return to smaller trucks. Our pumpers are now so big there are some streets/alleys they literally can not get down. They’re also too tall to be safe; needing a climbing harness to pull a 2.5″ off the back is not a good thing.

    But I think the above posters are right about NFPA driving things to be more and more expensive and larger. This will not be a popular opinion, but until the fire departments of this country tell the manufacturers on the NFPA committees to go jump in a lake nothing will change. NFPA 1901 has slowly moved from being about firefighter safety to being a rent-seeking body for the manufacturers.

  • FIREhat

    I welcome any return to smaller trucks. Our pumpers are now so big there are some streets/alleys they literally can not get down. They’re also too tall to be safe; needing a climbing harness to pull a 2.5″ off the back is not a good thing.

    But I think the above posters are right about NFPA driving things to be more and more expensive and larger. This will not be a popular opinion, but until the fire departments of this country tell the manufacturers on the NFPA committees to go jump in a lake nothing will change. NFPA 1901 has slowly moved from being about firefighter safety to being a rent-seeking body for the manufacturers.