Tell Us What You Think

We use this technique as well although with a halligan and normally it is only used on the newer houses that have steep pitched roofs. I think we are a bit critical of the saw depth here. The fact that he has it buried here tells me that the saw is not going through the wall studs otherwise he would know it. I think I will give the guy the benefit of the doubt and assume he didn't do the same depth when he went parallel with the ridge. Also in my opinion, the ease in which the axe/halligan being sunk into that roof is additional indicator of the roof integrity in that area. I actually feel its kinda hard to lean out the required 4'(4'x4' hole) from a ladder without a foot keeping me more stable. I see so many pictures of people not using roof ladders at all so I am happy to see them being safe.

My question is why are they opening the roof to begin with? The picture clearly shows a window with a ladder to it yet no smoke seems to be anywhere. Even if there was some fire under that roof, it is still relatively easier to get it from the underside. I have been retired a few years and it has been many moons since the training academy, but it seems like now on even a simple room and contents in a 1 story rancher they open the roof. In the bygone days, we only opened the roof on a well advanced attic fire, a balloon frame structure, or to support a firewall. The practice may be taught now, but it looks to be an unsafe one to me.

They tech us this, but I don't use it I don't think it is safe.

I have been taught to use a Haglin tool, but just make sure its in the roof good. Have seen this done at a fire school.

Bob

Hi Bill,

This is taught and practiced in Maine as well. I can understand how it might raise an eyebrow or two, especially among the old-scool crowd, but it really works quite well.

I am not familiar with any negative event involving this footing technique in the State of Maine.

Rick Goodell
Past-Chief, Etna, Maine
"The YouTube Chief"

The Good, the Bad and the Ugly...

The Good...
Full PPE

The Bad ...
Poor technique using the "tool foot-hold" and chainsaw depth.

The Ugly ...
Ground ladder completely blocking the window...
emergency egress which the interior crew(s) may need in a hurry.

My take on it is it's either a training fire with theaterical smoke, or they're trying to open up to reach a stubborn overhaul spot.

Obviously from the smoke conditions they're not venting for life or to allow fire attack to procede!

I have been to complete PITA fires that were knocked down readily, but the flammable liquids used to start it had rendered all the interior floors unsafe. Great...we saved the shell and spent four hours working off ladders to open up walls and roofs to put out the hot spots since overhaul from the interior was impractical. And being it was a strongly suspected from the outset to be arson you didn't want to let the fire destroy any more evidence.

I've also been to fires that the interior guys just couldn't reach easily a spot under the roof due to oddball renovations so we attacked from the top down.

So there's multiple scenarios where cutting in that place could be perfectly reasonable.

As for the foothold, I've seen it taught, never used it personally. Then again I *hate* roofs...I was always good for a laugh if no one else was available and I had to work on a roof...I've been known to crawl on my hands and knees :)

One more thing. A tip of the helmet....they are wearing their PPE. ALL OF IT! Great job on that part.

This is one of those pics that graces the covers of the trades.....Fire Engineering and Firehouse, that sparks debate and dicussion. That is training. My take is similar to Happy Medic, not the best place for the cut, and judging by the limited area on the picture, is a cut even neccessary? Yes the saw is buried, the axe isn't as deep as it should be for this technique, which I am not in favor of. One good point, two guys on the roof, not an entire crew. Get on, cut, get off.
Great pic!

We were taught this in my academy, but as a last resort, and only if someone has a good grip on us too.

....oh no.

This is perhaps the Truck's version of the smoothbore battle. Why are we still teaching/using faulty methods. This is an unsafe thing to do on a roof; takes away a tool that is needed on a roof for other things; and prevents others from giving the saw firefighter a hand. Try putting two roof ladders up instead of one so you don't have to lean over your cut and risk losing your footing. Yes, great training photo.

I have seen this and have used it. The important part is to avoid thinking of it as a real foothold. If you HAVE to lean that far out then you ought to keep most of your weight on your shin and just use that technique to keep from slipping. It's better than not having it, but you just can't start to depend on it.

I just took another look and am now interested in their reasoning for cutting where they are. That first cut looks equal to the exterior wall, the Officer at the bottom should direct them inward.

And the saw at full depth? If that's a 12" or 16" bar the horizontal cuts will completely cut the roof members destroying whatever roof strength remains.

Great photo.

NH has it the same as we do.

Truckmen can use the pick end of the halligan bar to get a foothold to make the first far cut, then back onto the ladder. With proper ladder placement on the peak roof you can get a lot done. Clearly this photo shows a good idea with poor execution.

It happens.

HM

Bill,

I have been taught this as well but with the pick end of a haligan tool; and as Joe said you have to bury the whole point.

Hey Bill, Yes this is being taught these days and it is a way to gain reach. The execution of the practice as shown in the photo is poor though. The axe is to be punched through the roofing with the handle parallel to the ridge/eve and then turned 15 degrees down so the pressure on the head and transferred down the shaft of the axe. The axe needs to be fully sunk in and as for the integrity of the roofing the FF should note that as he sinks the axe. Too soft? Go to option 2.

Bill,
I was taught this in a truck company operation class but only to be used as last resort. Of coarse you need to be working off a ladder at all times but when you need that extra reach it's better to have your weight spread out over an area. Obviously in this picture (of what I can see only from this single picture) it looks as if they did not take that extra minute to secure there make shift roof step.

Risk vs. Benefit.........

i have no idea if it is being taught, but as they cut into the roof they begin to compromise the strength.